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For all the money we pay INTO insurance benefits..The USA Gov could place a National health care system, that is FAIR…And probably cover MORE then the corps do.
so lets put that staight
in canada its public everybody can treated for free with wait
in us only what 50%? of people can treated “fast”?
when the other 50% just wait to die
i am french in france it’s a public system
and like the us private system i can chose my doctor chose my hospital were i buy my medication have a second opinion and i NEVER NERVER waited 4month for something
#75—Thomas==what is the proper analysis/conclusion when “We the people” WANT HEALTHCARE COVERAGE FOR EVERYBODY????
and if you get past that, do YOU personally want to live in a country where a large percentage of people effectively have no access to healthcare until they reach emergency conditions?
YOU PERSONALLY. go for it.
76:
Where would the government get the money from for such a noble effort?
Americans:
Travel more! Go see other cultures. Go to Europe. Ask around any person in Europe, even those unemployed, “Can you go to a Hospital and be treated for anything? Do you have Health Insurance?”.
Most (mainly in southern countries) will bitch about Public Health care, but the fact is that nobody is refused to be taken care of. And in the Northern Scandinavian Countries the Public Health Care works perfectly.
#79–TomB and all miserable black hearted misanthrops==
Estimates consistently put the cost of our for-profit/competing healthcare system’s “useless overhead”–ie money spent in “healthcare” that is not spent on patient care, at anywhere from 15-30 percent.
More than enough money to redirect the current funds and provide universal care.
Makes all our business more competitive internationally.
and if you get past that, do YOU personally want to live in a country where a large percentage of people effectively have no access to healthcare until they reach emergency conditions?
YOU PERSONALLY. go for it.
Lets hear the justification for the greatest country on earth allowing a large percentage of its people to suffer from poor access to healthcare. I’d like to hear it.
In Australia you are covered by the governments universal health care (Medicare) but also allowed to have private health, in fact private is encouraged with rebates, etc.
I, and my family are only on the public as we are both disability pensioners and unable to afford private anything, let alone health. My parents however have full private insurance.
There have been many situations where one system has out-shone the other for us and my parents, but overall, the system works. And well, too.
#78
The first answer is that by the first rule of economics, there are no free lunches. Someone pays for that health care. There is no such thing as “free” health care.
Second, there are all kinds of questions about who decides what is covered. Should breast implants and orthodontics be included? How about people that choose dangerous lifestyles such as skydiving or bungee jumping? Should all the latest procedures be covered at no cost to the patient?
Third, “We the people” was never meant to imply that the government should pay everyone’s health insurance. Never. It was meant that the government cannot get so overbearing as to unanswerable to the people. It was a statement of limits on the government not empowerment.
Fourth, if the people want government paid health insurance, then do it at the State level. Let’s see how it works out. Let’s see what innovative solutions the States find before we decide to screw the pooch and shove it down the rest of the country’s throat.
#83–Thomas==each point you raised is boogus and easily answered. Fer instance==who said there was any free lunch?
But more importantly, YOU did NOT answer the question. Whatsamatter you? At some deep unrecognizing level do you sense how shrunken your miserable soul is revealed to be?–so you try to divert.
Go ahead. Kindle that ember of humanity that is within you still.
Answer the question.
#83
Actually, if you had paid attention, you would see that I answered both questions posed in post #78.
First you asked:
“We the people” NEVER stood for universal health care nor big government. It referred to limitations on government not empowerment.Thus, the proper conclusion is that “We the people” is a non-sequitur as it applies to the Federal government providing universal health care coverage.
Your second question:
Again, I answer this by posing a counter question. The problem here is how we define “access to health care”. Does that mean breast implants? Does it mean orthodontics? Does that mean the latest techniques or only sufficient to survive? Does that mean I can partake of any lifestyle I wish including highly dangerous ones with no financial consequence? Thus, your are asking a bating question by being vague about what is meant by “access to health care.”
Let us not forget that we also live in a country where people are afforded the choice to make decisions about their health care coverage. There is absolutely no question that it could be improved, however, a monolithic government organization in my opinion is the wrong solution. Regardless. it should be up to the States to decide whether and how they wish to provide universal health care coverage not the Federal government.
Post #86 is actually a reply to post #85.
#86–Ok Thomas, yes, I can see how you think you answered the question==and you did about “We the people.” But in fairness, posing a question does not answer a question. But your response is a reasonable “first step” if not a forthcoming DIRECT answer.
The question still remains unanswered, and you are smart enough to do so, “if” you want to?
Again, for you and other misanthrops who want to address the quality of life issue/justice issues/society issues rather than roam off into economic theory: “do YOU personally want to live in a country where a large percentage of people effectively have no access to healthcare until they reach emergency conditions?
YOU PERSONALLY. go for it.
Lets hear the justification for the greatest country on earth allowing a large percentage of its people to suffer from poor access to healthcare. I’d like to hear it.”
Understand that “no access to healthcare” obviates your dodge of referring to breast implants. Does that non-sequiter work over your glass of chablis at the country club?
More concretely==should every citizen of the GOUSA have access to childhood immunizations EVEN IF THEY CAN’T PAY FOR IT????
How about an annual physical?
How about a doc exam for difficulty in breathing===you know===ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE.
Use your brain to deal with the issue rather than to avoid it. Some of your posting/attitudes might change if you actually engaged the issue?
“Clinton said such measures would apply only to workers who can afford health coverage but refuse to buy it,”
So now we have one of the architects of single payer national health care admitting that in fact people without health insurance are not as poor as people pretend.
Most of this ’45 million’ can in fact afford the few hundred dollars a month, but they don’t think it’s a good deal.
Meanwhile the busybodies that want to control everything realize that bringing them into the system of insurance allows them to be charged for the health care of the rest.
I don’t know, I’m Canadian;
My wife and I just had our first child. She was born in the Hospital here in Cambrisdge Ontario. We had a OBGYN and a MidWife at the birth, it was a C-Section as she turned at the last moment. Our infant was than in a incubater for 2 days and my wife and child stayed in the hospital for 5 days under the care of the OBGYN, MidWife a Peditration and several nurses.
Total cost to my family was just parking.
the:
-Hostital stay
-OMGYN
-MidWife
-Peditration
-Nurses
-surgry
were all free.
The only thing I paid for was parking and my Coffee and donuts i bought at the Tim Hortan’s in the Hospital.
Canadian Helth care is great where I live. South-Western Ontario.
#89–Mike==stop avoiding the question(s) and answer them?
Certainly some percentage of those without coverage could afford it. Some would also be greatly stretched to pay it. Some would have to make major sacrifices, and SOME CAN’T AFFORD IT!!!
So Mike==what should we do with those who can’t afford healthcare? Right now, they have to get sick enough to go to the emergency room. Are you ok with this system?
#82 Robert – Thank you Robert, that is what I said in post #23, Australia has a dual health care system one public one private. I haven’t lived in Australia since about 1996 so I wasn’t sure how it is working now however you cleared that up!
Good onya!
How’s life there post Howard?
Cheers
#86 Thomas
The Preamble of the US Constitution:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfareand secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
At the time of the authoring of the US Constitution the modern concept of ‘national health’ did not exist. Happiness and Prosperity is also included in the definition of “Welfare”.
It seems that while it is not spelled out in detail the General Welfare of the people was considered important enough to be something that the US government has been charged with carrying out. Why else would this be in the Preamble? Unless they concerned with hitting a word count…
Cheers
I don’t know if Mr. Tim Horton with the wife who had a child and only paid for coffee is trying to make light of the situation or really believes that his healthcare is “free” in Canada ?
There is no such thing as a free lunch so to speak.
Nothing is for nothing
You paid tons of taxes in an inefficient system for your wife’s medical care and i guess to wait for that cup of coffee
Taxes, taxes and more taxes
All we really get in Canada is the growth of self serving government agencies and beaurocrats
who are not only highly not productive , self serving , a plague and cancer on Canada but really consider that they are doing a service which the world could not live without and are if anything underpaid
Canadians are among the stupidest people in the world to both accept and believe this stuff
Its amazing that they do not say a world that when a member of a senior politician’s family gets sick that they run right for the Mayo Clinic
#94–Max==you must be as dumb as a repuglican to think Mr Horton doesn’t understand the tax system in Canada and the appropriate in context use of the term free in his post.
I think you actually know this but post as you do anyway.
Now, do you know what that makes YOU?
#90 – I wouldn’t call the Canadian system free. Aren’t you paying for your health care through your paycheck? Special tax that comes out of your pay? I thought that’s the way the Canadian system worked.
Most countries are not FREE. Your paying somewhere down the line for health care. It’s a matter of where and how you pay it and how high the cost I think.
93:
You forgot to bold the word “promote.” It does not say “provide” as it does in reference to the “common defence.”
Promoting a good healthcare system does not mean taxing everybody and providing it.
Promoting it would go a long way toward making it affordable for everybody — dollar for dollar off of your tax bill at the end of the year would be a good start.
#94 Max Labovitch “Canadians are among the stupidest people in the world to both accept and believe this stuff”
Sure everything is “not free”.
I made a point long ago in what does a country provide for its citizens in exchange for all the money its citizens pay it in direct and indirect taxes?
To be American…beyond the bragging rights “Hey look at me, I am an American!” (Not something one would want to say too loud nowadays…)
I don’t ever see any Germans going around “Hey look at me I’m German”…or Swedes, or Spanish, or Australians…well pissed Aussies, maybe 😉
They all get taxed same as Americans but there it seems they get more value back from their governments which is what I believe is the point that many people here are making!
Perhaps these countries seem and can do more for its citizens because they aren’t running around in being the self appointed world police.
There are other countries on the UN security council besides GOUSA and perhaps they are having a little titter to themselves because they don’t have to do jack shit, because GOUSA is there, all sleeves rolled up, cocked and ready to go!!
With all the trillions of dollars GOUSA spends on the ability to blow shit up there isn’t much left over for its own people.
When Schools need some money, or hospitals, or social security et al there isn’t any to spare. However if a couple of hundred billion MORE dollars (in addition to the hundreds of billions already spent) are needed to blow shit up…that checks already written.
Can you see the frustration?
Cheers
Just a data point. I live in Ontario and my sister experienced severe headaches and finally, a seizure. She got an MRI within the 48 hours and, when it showed a tumour in her brain, surgery scheduled for the following Monday. The surgery was successful and she has been tumour free since.
My data point is as valid as the one in the video, which is to say, not very.
In all, I’m happier with the Canadian system than I was with the US system. The latter worked just as well for me, if not better, but I am a healthy professional who had good coverage and no substantial claims for my 7 year stay in the US. I’m glad, though, that my sister, who is employed part time and who’s husband is self employed, didn’t have to worry about coverage and claims.
It’s not being free the issue… It’s about access to Health Care. In the US, Health care is not a right, it’s a privilege. In Europe is a right.
If medical price gouging was seen with a similar perspective as how we have historically (at least pre-2000)viewed “war profiteering”, at least some of the pressure on the health-care system in the US would be relieved. The artificial controls placed on the number of medical students cranked out each year is another major part of the problem. Sure reasonable standards should apply, but the current model, particularly in the area of medical specializations is more about controlling supply than meeting demand.
I agree with the idea of some sort of national health-care program is badly needed. But, so is less bureaucracy. My Grandfather, a country doctor, owned a lot of chickens. Not because he liked chickens, but because many of his patients were poor farmers and he prioritized patient access to care ahead of the “how are you going to pay” aspect of practice management. Obviously today, two hens and a cantaloupe aren’t going to cover the overhead of an maintaining an MRI machine. So, what’s the solution? Who knows. But, when things get this FUBAR, a good start would be making the financials of every aspect of medical care completely transparent. Doing this will be major battle, since most prices in health-care are reverse engineered with target income and profit being objective one. It’s not just doctors doing this, it’s the entire medical services supply chain. Anyone who thinks there isn’t an S-Class factored into that $17.00 latex glove charge for your prostate exam, will need to remove your head so the doctor can finish his work.
#88
You are asking a leading question that is intentionally vague. It is like asking an atheist “How can you not believe in God?” and the atheist responding, “What exactly do you mean by ‘god’?”. Until you clarify what exactly is meant by “access to health care” there is no way to reasonably provide an answer.
I agree that every parent should have the option to have their child immunized and every person should have the option of a yearly physical. I also believe that the government should not be the one providing that service nor should they be in a position to mandate those services. The Founding Fathers rightly believed that every government system would eventually become corrupt. Thus, you have situations like San Francisco where the City’s health insurance is paying for sex change operations. Creating a system whereby the government can help people to get the insurance of their choosing if they are unable to afford it is a far, far, far cry from the type of big government systems that exist in Europe.
We both agree that improvements to health care coverage are needed and that we need to find ways of getting the health care coverage for the poor. However, we differ greatly in the nature of the solutions to that problem.
#102
The reason country doctors no longer exist is malpractice. Malpractice insurance is so high now that there are doctors that are starting to provide health care by requiring patients to sign a “do not sue me” letter which says that they will file for bankruptcy if someone files a malpractice suit. Medical schools are naturally competitive and universities have limited resources. In other words, only so many people can graduate from Harvard or UCLA medical schools and thus the supply is naturally limited.
I think people should stop throeing out numbers as a crisis, when in fact the numbers are way off.
You say 45 million uninsured(a number that somehow hasn’t changed for years). Out of that, probably about 8 million are illegal immigrants, and another 25 million are uninsured by choice. I’d say the real problem is closer to 12 million max.
#104, Thomas
The reason country doctors no longer exist is malpractice.
Oh really. I know several physicians. Not one of them has ever been sued. There was another physician here in town a few years back. For an OBGYN, she was not very people friendly. Yes, she was sued for malpractise. Lost her license too because she was extremely incompetent.
But the stupidest part of the sentence? You turned around and answered it yourself. The cost of medical school requires these physicians pay back a large loan.
BTW, your “don’t sue me letters” are of very limited value and will not stop a malpractice suit.
#108
Furthering your moniker again I see. Have you asked your physician friends lately about how much they pay in malpractice insurance? Whether they have been sued is far different than whether they are required to pay enormous sums in insurance to protect against being sued.
You need to learn to read the *entire* post. The “don’t sue me letters” state that if you do sue them for malpractice, that they will simply declare bankruptcy and this scenario has already happened.