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The U.S. military is segregating violent Iraqi prisoners in wooden crates that in some cases are not much bigger than the prisoners.
I have little confidence in the U.S. military’s definition of violent prisoners. It’s as likely we’re simply discussing uncooperative prisoners. And torture.
Three grainy black-and-white photos show the rudimentary structures of wood and mesh. Some of the boxes are as small as 3 feet by 3 feet by 6 feet tall, according to military officials. There was no image released of a box that size.
The average Iraqi male is 5 feet 6 inches tall, according to the Iraqi Ministry of Health. That leaves little room for a prisoner to move once placed inside.
The military said the boxes are humane and are checked every 15 minutes. It said detainees, who stand inside the boxes, are isolated for no more than 12 hours at a time.
Watch the “Bridge Over the River Kwai” or “King Rat” a couple of times and learn about Hot Boxes.
I grew up in the era that discovered Nazi and Japanese atrocities commited upon POW’s and ethnic prisoners in concentration camps. Part of the worldwide political response to that cruelty was the protocols accepted for the treatment of military and civilian political prisoners. Which the United States now ignores.
#29–Dood==there’s that humor we love: “Mike N makes many good points.” Kneeslapper.
Yet to be serious for a moment (let me put my lollipop down) YES–both you and Mike and actually everyone who posts here regularly have come up with good ideas.
I guess its a ratio thing which kind of goes to QB’s point of conditioning. Often done with lollipops when little kiddies are involved.
I don’t even recall ever using lollipops before. If I did, certainly no inference of the homosexual view of things was meant. They aren’t even phallic.
Is a neo-con world view that monitone?
#30–QB==first you lose me then you run circles around me. Why post to extinction if you are thinking positive reinforcement?
I certainly don’t want to expressly or subtly or accidentally dis-encourage anyone from becoming fully what their better selves may be.
There is actually nothing wrong with being right wing, or conservative, or “maybe” even a neo-con. Everything falls on a continuum and I’m sure there are good ones among them. Right now, I’m thinking of Pat Buchannan and William F Buckley.
But you do have to be “clever.” Not some lameass ditto head spounting jerk-off as too many of the right wingers here do too much of the time.
Its too often like putting a turd inbetween the lollipops they do show they are capable of. I do it on the left side of the ledger more often than I should, and mostly I get ignored.
Extinction doesn’t work when the motivation to perform comes from within.
It’s easier to stack them when they are rectangular or square. Saves on shelf inventory.
I have no doubts that the military and its mercenaries in Iraq have and continue to commit all sorts of torture, the likes of which we are likely to never know.
All in the name of ‘freedom’…freedom for whom? These people that the military are locking up (illegally and immorally) aren’t threats to the US, and, furthermore, there have been no convictions despite having thousands of ‘suspects’ locked up.
Throw in the moronic, idiotic, and stupid people who defend torture saying ‘they do it!’ or even worse, saying that there is no cost too high to protect our soil, and you have this happening with no widespread outrage whatsoever.
If American troops were treated this way, we’d be outraged. But because it’s not, we’re ok with it? When did that happen?
Ridiculous.
#34 Brian
Have you ever considered taking the side of our guys instead of the people who would gladly slit your throat. No I guess not.
Brian, American troops have been treated this way(locked up for months or years without trial) in wars going back centuries. Furthermore, noone found this objectionable.
Perhaps the lot of Bushco, Inc. should be put into these after their war crimes trial. After all they are the ones who lied us into a war with a country that did nothing to us, under false pretenses. None of this would have happened, had Bush read and understood his daily briefing that told him that Osama was going to attack the US. The blame is solely on the Bush Administration here.
I’m calling a truce for the whole lot of you myopic nerds… tomorrow we’re having a fire drill and I want everyone to lose the death grip on your key boards and staplers, put down the liter of Mountain Dew, come out of your cubicles, go outside to the company pavilion and blink through your thick glasses… because I’m bringing . . . . Scarlett Johansson!!!! She’s been begging me to meet some of you people. She’s just a real people person!!!!!!!!
I’m sorry to hear that Mr. (Con)Fusion is having surgery and chemo… that sucks… hope things turn out well for him.
#4, Alix,
A very powerful post. This is the kind of writing I want to cheer and say “Ya !!! Right on!!!”. Instead I’m sitting here with a tear in my eye because that power you scribed was because some moran thinks torture is justified. It is truly sad to say there are people like that in this world.
Thank you for that post. The adults will appreciate it.
So Bush lied us into war? He knew there were no WMDs? Don’t you think he would expect to get caught when no WMDs are found? Why would he take such a political hit? Wouldn’t he have planted some weapons if he knew beforehand?
Looks like you can walk into this “crate” and walk around in it. If you want a photo that shows something else you need a better photo.
Some of these guys are very violent. Killing an American is there idea of a sure way to get twenty virgins. Of course they kill more muslims than Americans but…
Oh well this is more or less the norm in American prisons as long as they can lay down for people that don’t respect the rights of others.
You don’t like it you go take care of them. If they kill you no loss.
Let me know when you find some evidence of abuse. I don’t like torture or abuse.
On the other hand it is sort of hard to be real nice to a true believer who seriously thinks his ticket to paradise is over your dead body.
Hopefully we’ll see these soon for sale at Crate & Barrel.
#42, dumdum,
Looks like you can walk into this “crate” and walk around in it. If you want a photo that shows something else you need a better photo.
try this.
#40 Mr Fusion
No one said that torture was justified only that it would be nice to see a little more backing of the home team. I guess in these times that’s expecting too much especially from the editors.
Oh well that’s life. It’s been fun guys but all good things must come to an end. Have fun and I’ll catch you on the other side where posts are never deleted.
Looks like a porta potty to me.
#45, Dr. Duh,
If making the home team as low life as we accuse the terrorists to be, I want no part of it. As a nation we are better than they are.
This will gain the lost respect of the world for the USA.
Is torturously cramped as that is, it’s actually bigger than what Rumsfeld originally approved.
A military report in 2006 — which of course the “liberal media” totally ignored — described the cells in Guantanimo:
>> The report cited a case in which detainees were kept at a special operations team’s temporary holding facility in small cells — measuring 20 inches by 4 feet by four feet — for up to seven days, with at least one detainee kept naked.
My shoulders are wider than 20 inches! Oh my word, that must have been hell on earth.
And now we know that most of those guys being tortured in there were innocent.
>>an academic study by Seton Hall University Law School concluded that 55 percent of detainees had never engaged in hostile acts against the United States, and only 8 percent had any association with al-Qaeda. http://tinyurl.com/65vxbt
55% NEVER ENGAGED IN ANY HOSTILE ACTS!!!!!!!!!
Why is Rumsfeld not in prison?
35, 45,
What is your problem? Don’t you get it? If you believe in human rights you have to apply them to everyone especially your enemies. Don’t a lot of right-wing neo-fascists spout lots of religious dogma?
What would Jesus do? Didn’t he say that very thing? We must treat all as ourselves, especially those who wish us ill or else we are just as evil as those we pretend we are better than.
I love this country, and to those that say criticizing its policies are unpatriotic I say “fuck you”. Saying “my country, right or wrong” is like saying “my mother, drunk or sober”. You can love the person who’s behavior you hate.
I love the troops. Not only have I served, as a civilian distributor’s rep to the military I helped smuggle a pallet of Heineken to some troops downrange during Desert Storm. So not only will I kick the ass of anybody who challenges my patriotism, I have friends in the service who would help me do it.
40,
THanks, I’m blushing. My words van be strong because the philosophy supporting them (our constitution) is true.
I think that anyone here that thinks that these “large” segregation crates are ok… Should spend a week in them just for kicks… since it’s perfecly humane.
#51–Dexton==did you read anything at all before posting or just read “small box” before your knee jerked?
Context!!!
POW’s segregated for 12 hours at a time. Not a week.
Kicks?==no for segregations for a variety of reasons.
Perfectly Human?–what minimum space/provisions would you require for POW’s who are choosing to be a threat to guards or other prisoners?
Buy a clue.
#52, Bobbo,
I don’t understand your point to Dexter. It is obvious that he is challenging those who claim this is not torturous to reside in a box for a while.
While he does mention a week, I’m sure he meant a period of time at least equal to what the Iraqis spend in them. Also to keep in mind, just because a spokesperson says something happens, ie. the 15 minute observations, does not mean they actually happen.
#53–Fusion==I don’t know how you can know what Dexter means other than by what he posts? I can think of nothing better than these boxes if you have been singled out for retaliation by your fellow inmates and no other provisions are available other than the Base Commanders Office?
My complaint about several of his posts, finally including this one, is he creates an obliquely related strawman argument rather than address what has actually been posted. Then, as is all too common, he complains but offers no alternatives.
My own complaint about THIS thread would be (as always) the lack of details to really provide a basis for discussion==so railing against a set of your private assumptions really is just that.
When are these isolation boxes used? Against whom exactly? What are the alternatives available or that should be developed?
Eideard our dear moderator makes a similar error tying these isolation boxes in with “sweat boxes” which was not raised in the story. Why not remove oxygen from them and call them suffocation boxes?
Usually there is enough substance in any set of facts to warrant a conversation. Going off in tangents makes the whole thing an exercise in psychology rather than the actual issues presented, or almost presented.
If I missed your concern, post again.
#54, Bobbo,
I read Dexter’s post as sarcasm.
My own complaint about THIS thread would be (as always) the lack of details to really provide a basis for discussion
I agree. Unfortunately, getting information that would satisfy ALL of our questions from the Pentagon and Bush Administration doesn’t happen.
We do have to make certain assumptions.
Eideard our dear moderator makes a similar error tying these isolation boxes in with “sweat boxes” which was not raised in the story.
I disagree over this minor point. This is one the first things that crossed my mind too. An old form of torture with modern conveniences.
Usually there is enough substance in any set of facts to warrant a conversation. Going off in tangents makes the whole thing an exercise in psychology rather than the actual issues presented, or almost presented.
I couldn’t agree with you more. I would add that some regular posters like to try to steer the topic elsewhere more to deflect from their heroes than as a psychology exercise. In other words, I don’t give them the credit you might for ad hominem attacks.