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The U.S. military is segregating violent Iraqi prisoners in wooden crates that in some cases are not much bigger than the prisoners.
I have little confidence in the U.S. military’s definition of violent prisoners. It’s as likely we’re simply discussing uncooperative prisoners. And torture.
Three grainy black-and-white photos show the rudimentary structures of wood and mesh. Some of the boxes are as small as 3 feet by 3 feet by 6 feet tall, according to military officials. There was no image released of a box that size.
The average Iraqi male is 5 feet 6 inches tall, according to the Iraqi Ministry of Health. That leaves little room for a prisoner to move once placed inside.
The military said the boxes are humane and are checked every 15 minutes. It said detainees, who stand inside the boxes, are isolated for no more than 12 hours at a time.
Watch the “Bridge Over the River Kwai” or “King Rat” a couple of times and learn about Hot Boxes.
I grew up in the era that discovered Nazi and Japanese atrocities commited upon POW’s and ethnic prisoners in concentration camps. Part of the worldwide political response to that cruelty was the protocols accepted for the treatment of military and civilian political prisoners. Which the United States now ignores.
The US doesn’t ignore these protocols. That certain lefties choose to not read and understand the protocols isn’t a problem of the US military.
[edit: comments guide]
By the way, most of these protocols were already being observed before and during WWII.
2,
I am so sick of that fucking stupid-ass unpatriotic chickenshit asinine canard. “They do it worse!” is one of the foulest, most lazy monkey-business rationalization ever committed.
It’s been said before, but you are either one of the biggest idiots on the planet or one of those pathetic, lame shills for fascism who troll about here on occasion. I say pathetic and lame because you are just a willing Winston Smith, who I doubt has even the thin padding of the nomenklatura to recompense selling out America’s soul.
They do that because they are the bad guys. Get it? Do I have to yell for the cheap seats? WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE FUCKING GOOD GUYS!
The good guys don’t torture
The good guys don’t spy on their citizens, at least without a warrant
The good guys obey the law
The good guys don’t lie
The good guys don’t kill innocents
and so on…
So, yes, they are horrible, and are Very Bad People. But nor all of the people living there are, and most of the people we imprisoned illegally were also innocent.
Those that allow any action to defeat an evil are no better the evil they wish to destroy.
Jesus, the editors here have gotten weak. You’d think my abuse of them would have toughened them up.
Anyway, I think we should applaud the military for going green. That shack doesn’t look expensive to heat or cool, and I’m sure it’s very light for shipping… even with a prisoner in it.
#1,
Oh, so you’re an expert on the protocols now? Please, do explain them.
we are not in a competition with the terrorists over who tortures less.
they are murdering criminals
we are a nation based on the rule of law
if you think the standard we should be holding ourselves to is “anything less than what terrorists do” I’m afraid you’re living in the wrong country, you might find Burma a little more comfortable
#4 smartalix – “Those that allow any action to defeat an evil are no better the evil they wish to destroy.”
Your leftist brainwashing is showing. Not sure what you think war is but let me assure you it’s not the game to portrait it to be.
How do you come to the conclusion someone captured off the battlefield is automatically innocent?
#2–Dr Dodd==learn anything so far in this thread or does common decency still escape you?
Why not use today, right now, to become a better more thoughtful person?
#8–Dr D==nevermind.
#9 bobbo
Spoken bravely from the safety of your computer keyboard.
[edit: boring]
I think bloggers should be placed in these before allowed to be free to post messages about things they haven’t a clue about except in their imaginations.
Dodd,
Nice dodging, but no banana. Try a real argument.
In the case of imprisoned innocents, it is well-documented that many imprisoned were rounded up by local warlords and sold for bounty to the US forces as insurgents.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8049868/
So now, how about a real question or comment or idea from you based on fact, and not propaganda? I promise to play nice if you act like an adult.
It just makes you long for the days when we simply put hoods on them and took embarrassing photos…
Natefrog, you should read the Geneva Conventions for yourself. They are not that long. For this post, I’ll just note that punishment of POWs is not unheard of. Usually it is done with the cooperation of the highest ranking enemy in captivity, or through a panel set up with the enemy. However, I’m not sure that those exist in this case.
#11–Dr Dudd==bravery? Well, I guess that makes as much sense as the rest of your posts lately. Do you have severe mood swings, or just mood swings?
I recall as part of my survival training in the military that we were put in boxes that were 2x2x3. I liked it. In a box, its nice and warm and private and no one can hit you. Some guys found out they were claustrophobic and didn’t like it at all.
I guess the point is that such a box is torture? I don’t see it. Easy to confuse what we might choose to do for fun, versus what is legal to do to an enemy combatant, war zone detainee, or whatever the US Constitution evading term of the moment is. The other legal alternative is to shoot them on the battlefield before they give up?
#4 you forgot one other one…
The Good Guys Don’t win……..
#14 smartalix
Nice setup, but as you know I can’t very well make a dissenting argument against this one truth.
I grew up in the same era as Eideard and remember clearly that we were the good guys- and the good guys didn’t torture prisoners.
It’s sad that so many of My Fellow Citizens have enthusiastically embraced torture as an acceptable practice.
If your answer is “They do it- why shouldn’t we?”, then I think it’s time to recall your Mother’s words of wisdom- “And if all your friends are jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you do it too?”
#17 Bobbo alludes to a good point here.
Assuming that the military has gone to all this trouble for a reason (a good assumption, I believe), and that some level of segregation became necessary for the protection of the guards and other prisoners, then we have to ask the question:
What is the alternative?
Shoot them? Drug them? What??
I will bet that any other alternative would have been at least as bad!
Human rights advocates say “there are concerns”.
Potential for misuse doesn’t prove that there was any abuse!
Call me back when someone can show that there were institutional abuses, or when someone has a practical alternative.
Can someone define torture? It’s a very relative term, often used to describe the actions of someone you don’t like. Or yor government, if the party you favor isn’t in power. I suppose anything that intentionally causes extreme mental or physical anguish is torture, but that varies considerably with the temperament and culture of the target.I would consider a typical jail cell to be torture if I were in it. I consider being seated next to a screaming toddler on a long airline flight torture. I would consider being a U.S. marine in a Humvee on a I.E.D.-laced roadway torture. I would consider Navy Seal training to be very extreme torture. I wouldn’t like a lot of things. What do all the people screaming about this suggest that the military, or any penal institution, do with violent prisoners? Wait until they kill someone? I’m not saying the boxes are the best approach – I’m not a penal expert. However, solitary confinement in small places seems to be a pretty common method for prisons to deal with violent prisoners, worldwide. But there is a lot of ranting and partisanship here and very little constructive thought.
#17 bobbo – “we were put in boxes that were 2×2×3. I liked it. In a box, its nice and warm and private and no one can hit you.
This explains much and as far as being hit, I could understand this happening to you. I for one have many times wanted to rip your arm off and beat you to death with it. 🙂
Not to mention Papillon. Anyway, I think it’s high time we put the Shrub admin’s members one by one in a box in the hot D.C. sun for 12 hours without food, water, seats, or bathroom facilities.
They ought to at least get a taste of what we claim is all right for others to get.
C’mon Suskind!
Saw Suskind interviewed, last night, on Hardball. Reasonably combative in person. Confident in proof of his allegations.
#23–Dodd? Is that you??? Why would disagreeing totally with the personality type that could post what I do make you want to be violent?
That doesn’t make any sense. When I see you acting like Lyin Mike, all I think is you should have gotten more lollipops as a kiddie.
You know, the good thing about being an adult now is that you can buy yourself as many lollipops as you wish.
((I’ll assume you were exaggerating for the humor, and your humor is as acutely tuned as your political views?))
bobbo, my I suggest you read about extinction before responding?
#27–QB==you lost me. I always thought Skinner’s work was “too obvious” to really be a psychoanalytic tool. Maybe for rats, monkeys, and simple responses that only need calling out rather than analysis?
You’ll have to “call out” what my extinction conditioning is disincentivising.
#26 bobbo
MikeN makes many good points it’s just that you are too brainwashed to understand.
Again with the lollipops? Your homosexual tendencies are really coming to the front. Could it be bobbo is just an alas for Barney Frank?
#28 I think you’re positively reinforcing Dr D.